DIY Volkswagen Passat B3 abs block repair

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In the instructions, we will repair the unit of the brand - Bosch. This is not the best of abesoks, and in addition, this is exactly what is installed on most brands.

for instance in Audi, Volkswagen, Ford, Skoda, Seat, Renault and even Mercedes come across.

Location of the ABS unit under the hood of the Audi A4

The problem starts with a pesky error and a full screen exclamation mark. Because of which nothing else can be shown by the tidy, it cannot until it fixes the problem.

Everything would be fine and it seems possible to drive, but when selling, the buyer often asks a lot of questions seeing this disgrace. And the most calm when on the electrics - everything is in order.

More often, a breakdown occurs in the electronic part of the unit.

The contacts there are thin and fragile. If the problem is similar to the one described below, with sufficient experience with a soldering iron, you will succeed.

We disassemble.
First, let's remove the electronic part. It is connected to the hydraulic (main) part by six bolts. Disconnect the supply cable, then crawl up and unscrew it with a convenient key.

12 contacts of the electro-module

Now you need to carefully open the plastic case of the module. We cut with a cutter along the seam, very carefully, without driving the knife deeply. You can touch the contacts inside.

The case has been opened.
We carefully examine the board under a magnifying glass and a bright lamp. Inspection of this unit revealed damage to two contacts on the left side going to the connector.

From the outside, everything seems normal.

By slightly moving these wires, they easily moved away from the contacts.

Gently solder the wiring into place. You can also solder a new common wire instead of these two. You need to solder very carefully - do not overheat the entire module with the board.

If in the soldering experience they are not strong - it is better to give it to an experienced friend or workshop.

We glue the case back - with good glue (not super).

We return the module to its place.

This instruction was used by: 11016 once.

call vw disassembly, phone numbers and addresses, see here

and where did the diagnostics take place?

Initial post from fix
Yes, I’ll tell you for sure tomorrow. H 111

First, you need to cut off the cover that covers the electronic part of the ABC unit.
Sawing is more convenient with a hacksaw blade, just try to prevent the blade from going inside the cut by more than 5-6 mm.

The block is shown with the lid already sawn off. By the way, completely, you can not carry it with you, just unscrew (6 torxes for 20) the electronic part.
Just remember which side the pressure springs are, under the valve coils.
Then you will see this in front of you:

Do not touch the compound with your fingers. And don't look that there are a lot of plastic shavings, this is one of my earliest experiences in repairing :-)
The point of the problem is shown in a blue circle. Everything has already been repaired here.
The mass of the board fell off, from the gilded cotact.
Previously, I tried to just solder the gap in place. (In this case, for example) It is terribly inconvenient, and a couple of times, I damaged the adjacent conductors.
Alternative places for soldering to the minus to the board are marked in red.
The guide on the right is the most convenient point. Build up, guess what?
The main thing for you is to return the mass to the crystal.

So, what to do if your ABS system breaks down. A clear sign that it does not work is a lit lamp on the dashboard with the inscription ABS. Do not get upset right away and cook a lot of money for an electronics specialist, it is quite possible that you can fix the system with your own hands.

For starters, if you do not trust the ABS light bulb, you can go onto a gravel or wet road and, having accelerated to 60 km per hour, apply the brakes with all your might.

If the ABS works, then you will feel the return blows to the brake pedal.

If the pedal does not work, it will go down and in a certain place will simply rest, creating resistance. All wheels of the car are likely to be locked and the car may even be pulled to the side a little.

Tracks from blocked wheels on the asphalt strewn with sand or gravel are very clearly visible. If the ABS works on the asphalt, you will see small abrasions instead of long paths from the braking wheels.

There are times when the dashboard light does not work. In older cars, an incandescent lamp is installed there.

If the light bulb burned for a long time (say there was a breakdown and no one fixed it), it may simply burn out. The wiring also often leaves. Therefore, we recommend that you occasionally check the operation of the ABS on a loose surface (several times a year).

If you have determined that your Anti-Lock Braking System is not working, you need to diagnose the problem and understand why the ABS is not working.

First, let's define what the system consists of.

The main components of the Anti-Lock Braking System (ABS):

1.Control unit - usually it is an element of the car's on-board computer. The on-board computer is today the heart of the car. It controls the engine, all electronic devices of the car, monitors and informs the state of the car.

Sometimes the ABS unit is placed in a separate device.
Unfortunately, in any case, you will not be able to repair, reset or reflash a control unit or a computer without special equipment and software, so you should contact a branded service station with these questions.

There is an option to purchase on ebay a module for connecting an on-board computer to a laptop with a disk (software). Just keep in mind that the cost of such equipment can be quite high and you will rarely use it.
In addition to all of the above, it should be noted that you are doing everything at your own peril and risk. If you incorrectly reflash or program the on-board computer of your car, the car may no longer go.

2. ABS sensors - there are several types of systems. Some vehicles have only two sensors on the front and rear wheels diagonally. In more advanced systems, there are four sensors - for each wheel, one sensor.

Typically, the sensors are screwed into a car's brake caliper and are a small inductor in a round piston-shaped housing.
On the axis of the rear wheel hub there is a magnetized gear (lattice) with ribs with uniform distances between them.

The rotating gear edges pass the sensor and induce a magnetic field in the inductor. According to the readings of the sensors, the abs unit understands how fast each wheel rotates and decides whether it is necessary to increase the braking force on it or, on the contrary, decrease it.

It is the sensors that break down most often. They are found in a chemically and physically active environment. Sometimes they are physically damaged, when hitting a wheel, when sand, mud or stones get in. There are also cases when the wheel is skewed from the worn out bearing of the hub and the sensor is wiped by the gear. Or the pads are jammed from the frozen handbrake, due to which the temperature of the entire caliper rises and the sensor may simply melt.

Very often all these problems are shown as temporary. That is, the sensor is working then not. When the caliper heats up, the sensor can work again, or vice versa during long parking. In each case, the manifestations are different.

3. Wires and connectors to ABS sensors - often they also cause incorrect operation of all systems.It is recommended to first of all visually check all the wires for breakage and damage, as well as check the connectors - blow them out and clean the contacts with a spray for electrical contacts.

It is also worth wiring the connectors of the lines themselves (harnesses) of wires that go to the main computer of the car.

So the first thing you need to do is determine what exactly isn't working.

If you have the ability to read information about a breakdown (error code) using the on-board computer, then everything is simple. The computer usually indicates a certain broken sensor and all you need to do is replace it.

If the sensor does not work right away, you will need to check the wires and connectors. In very many cases, the computer, due to poor contact, does not detect the presence of a sensor and cannot read information from it.

If the information cannot be read from the computer, you can simply focus on the ABS light on the dashboard of the car.

Unfortunately, in some cars, errors in the operation of the car's systems are recorded and can only be reset using a computer. That is, even if you replace all the ABS sensors and the system is normal, the computer will not turn it on until you clear the error code through the software.

In some cars, the computer removes errors over time. That is, if the error code has a limitation period of more than a month, the computer removes it, checks whether the system is currently working - if the system is working, turns it on.
In older cars, such as the Volkseagen passat b4 in our example, the system diagnoses all systems when the ignition key is turned every time and clears errors every time you start. It is very convenient for diagnosing and repairing the system.

We still don’t know which sensor is defective.
We need to find the connectors for connecting the sensors. To do this, you can simply find the sensor on the wheel and walk through the wire to the passenger compartment and find the sensor connections.
In our case, the rear sensor connectors were located under the rear seat.
The front sensor connectors were located under the bonnet.

In order to check the sensors, we will use several methods. We will work with the connectors described above.
The first thing that comes to mind is a tester.
1. Checking with a tester - without having any information about the vehicle system, we will assume that the resistance of all sensors is the same. In fact, this is how it should be, it's just that the inductors are the same for each wheel of the car.

During this experiment, we recorded a resistance of about 1 kOhm (1075 Ohm) on each sensor. On only one right rear sensor, the resistance was 1MΩ. which indicates a break in contact or burnout of the sensor coil.
We knew in advance according to the computer readings that the reason was in the rear right sensor, but we decided to check it all with our own hands for an example.

One more check - you need to check the voltage on all wires coming from the computer to the sensor connectors. The voltage across the contacts in our case was 5 Volts. This means that the signal to all sensors from the on-board computer is successfully transmitted.

One of the more difficult operations is to raise the car on a jack and by connecting the tester to the sensor contacts in the current measurement mode, spin the wheel. The magnetic gears on the wheels induce an absolute current in the sensors, which you can see on the readings of the device. Unfortunately, in our case, the device on all sensors showed approximately the same current strength, very small in magnitude.

2. Checking by picking up sound vibrations - one of the popular methods for checking sensors has been wandering on the Internet for a long time. Oscillations of the current in the coils of the sensors can be converted into sound oscillations; they only need to be amplified.

Usually, a cassette player with a head for picking up sound from a magnetic tape is used for this. The sensor contacts are connected to the head wires and the sound is amplified hundreds of times. Rotating the wheel of the car, you can hear in the headphones how the readings from the sensor are transmitted.If you do not hear anything, or you hear interference, it is most likely that there is something wrong with the sensor you are checking. The volume of the sound may also be a sign of a malfunction. If one sensor sounds many times quieter than the others, most likely the signal from this sensor is many times weaker and this information may simply not reach the car's computer.

3. Checking with an oscilloscope.
This is a new way of which we have not seen examples on the Internet. Since the oscilloscope device is a rather expensive thing and not everyone has it, it is necessary to come up with a replacement for the device.
Many people already have a laptop. Today there are many programs that repeat the functions of an oscilloscope.

They work as follows. Sound is picked up from the computer line-in or external microphone input. Further on the screen, it is converted into vibrations, which you can clearly see on the screen.

All we need to do is take the wire from the old headphones. Separate the wires going to the earphone and connect them to the contacts of the ABS sensor.

Thus, vibrations from the ABS sensors will be transmitted directly to the sound input of the laptop.

By turning on the oscilloscope program, you can observe the oscillations.

As an example, you can view the fluctuations on several sensors and understand how the waveform and amplitude of the signal differ. This is a very visual way and you will see exactly which of the sensors is transmitting the wrong signal.

In our case, on working sensors, we got a flat sinusoid with a large amplitude. As the wheel speed changes, the sinusoid increases the frequency and increases in amplitude.

On a broken sensor, with a slow wheel rotation, we did not see any oscillations, and with a fast one, we saw a sinusoid sometimes with clipped vertices. Sometimes the signal was simply interrupted.

According to preliminary symptoms, the problem manifested itself in the same way in the course of the car. If the system was rebooted while the car was moving, the computer showed that the system was working normally. When the car was parked for a long time, the system turned off again.

Also, when braking, the system began to beat the ABS when the car practically stopped, that is, at low speed and low wheel rpm.

All that is left to do is replace the sensor. Read about it on our website - see the links below.

Wed 27 Nov 2012

Views: 11 880 Category: Auto electrician

Basically the design of all ABS blocks and their repair is in many ways similar to other blocks, so if yours is broken ABS unit then, in this article we will look at how to repair it do it yourself.
Here are some of the symptoms: - if, when connected to the diagnostic connector, there is no connection between the computer and the ABS unit, or an error may pop up:

• 01203 - Electrical Connection between ABS and Instrument Cluster
• 03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent
• When the car is running, the STOP (!) Or ABS lamps periodically light up or light up periodically and the buzzer sounds 3 times.

All operations that will be described in this article are for informational purposes only.
The ABS unit is a part of the brake system and according to the traffic rules, any intervention in it is prohibited.
Our recommendations ...
I want to preface you that if you have never analyzed anything, then you had better not do this ...
Several units have been repaired using this method, and they all work fine and function.

So the description itself ...

Any ABS unit usually consists of 2 parts, the valve body itself and the electronic unit. The ABS unit is a very clever thing, which even if it fails, then you will in no case lose the brakes, no, they will work in a simple mode, bypassing this unit. Even when you take it out of the car and then you can safely sit down and drive and the brakes will work ...

So the repair itself ...
We remove the electronic unit from the car, what is needed for this: We jack up the wheel on the left side, remove it and substitute some piece of wood or bricks for your safety (you will have to climb inside under the wheel arch)

We remove the wing liner, of course, if there is one, then we unscrew the washer reservoir, it is screwed on with 3 bolts, from the bottom 2 and under the hood 1.
Now we carefully move the washer barrels to the side ... disconnect the connector from the electronic unit

There is a return pump connector under the abs electronic unit itself, we also remove it ...
If you have a Torx T20, then it is better to unscrew 6 screws for them, then remove our ABS electronic unit from the valve body

Now we arm ourselves with a cutter or something similar and carefully cut off the block cover (we scratch a little along the plastic case, along the entire perimeter, make grooves in the cover at the end, as in the figure). Its approximately thickness is two millimeters.

When you poke the whole thing through))), then take a flat screwdriver and try to pry the cover, only on the side where the connector is, and on the other. With such movements, we will break it off from the body. When you break off, then inside you will see the board itself, filled with some kind of crap that looks like jelly ... We don't pick anything there, there are very small radio components on the board and God forbid that you hook it ...

The dimensions of this box are 70 x 83 mm.

Now, just to be careful, take an adhesive tape and glue a part of the electronic board, leaving only a place where the contacts on the board connect to the contacts on the site of the block itself.

Approximately in the middle of the contact pads there are two thick wires that connect the board to the contact pads on the block case. Now if you take, for example, a needle and slowly shake those two wires, then you will see poor contact ... (in most cases from the side of the case)

So we found that problematic place that most ABS units suffer from, now we take a soldering iron and solder all the joints. Just remove the jelly first, carefully and slowly ... If the place cannot be soldered normally, then take a wire about ten centimeters thick and about 0.3 thick and solder it. Cut off the rest of the wire as you solder it.

I hope you will be more careful ...

When finished with the soldering of the wires, then you can check the performance of our block directly. disassembled, so to speak, you just need to attach its electronic part to the valve body, do not screw anything, connect the connectors and turn on the ignition. If everything is in order, then there is no buzzer and the lights show. that everything is in order, then you did everything right ... Now it remains only to collect everything, and glue the lid with some kind of eboksidka. That's all there is to it, I think that such a repair is within the power of everyone ... Good luck.

REPAIR UNIT ABS 8E0 614 111B VW PASSAT B5. and not only, the design of ABS blocks is in many ways similar to other blocks and the repair of these blocks is often similar, so if someone has an ABS block, this article can help fix this situation with your own hands.

SYMPTOMS: If during the diagnosis there is no connection between the diagnostic equipment and the ABS unit (the computer does not see the unit) or an error pops up 01203 - Electrical Connection between ABS and Instrument Cluster 03-10 - No Signal - Intermittent

When the car is running, the ABS and STOP lamps (!) Are constantly lit or periodically lit and the buzzer sounds three times.

ALL Operations described in this article are for informational purposes only. The authors do not bear any responsibility for the result of your self-repair. The ABS unit is part of the braking system, according to the traffic rules of the Russian Federation, any intervention in it is prohibited.

If you do not have sufficient skill and experience in repair, then I advise you not to do what will be described in this article.

Using the described method, several units were repaired, which function and work perfectly.

The ABS unit itself usually consists of two parts, an electronic unit and a valve body.

This is how it looks on the car.

I would like to point out that if your ABS electronic part fails, this does not mean that the brakes will disappear “no”, the car will work, drive and brake like an ordinary car. only the ABS, EDL, ESP systems will not work.Even if you remove the electronic part of the ABS unit from your car, then you can safely drive it, just keep in mind that some systems are not in order. And do not forget to cover the disassembled parts with something to protect from dust and dirt.

We start repairs and remove the electronic unit from the car, for this you need to: Jack up the left wheel, remove it and put some kind of support for safety, because you will have to crawl under the wheel arch

We remove, if there is a fender liner, unscrewing the screws, then we remove the washer tank, it is fastened with three M6 bolts, two from the bottom and one under the hood.

Carefully move the barrels to the side. and remove the connector from the electronic unit.

There is a return pump connector under the electronic unit, remove it. Using Torx T20, unscrew six screws and carefully remove the ABS electronic unit from the valve body

Then you need to carefully cut off the cover of the block, for this we use a cutter or some suitable object, scratch grooves on the plastic in all accessible places along the entire perimeter of our cover at the end. Its thickness is about 2 mm. Be very careful and watch carefully so that your cutter does not jump off, and does not fall inside and damage the block there.

When you make deep grooves, try to take a flathead screwdriver and slightly pry the cover on the other side of the main connector. The cover should easily break off from the body.

After we removed the cover, we will see a board with radio components inside and covered with some kind of jelly-like substance.

Do not under any circumstances pick this substance, as there are

small parts and conductors. you may damage them and the unit will become unusable.

The dimensions of our box in which the board is located are 70 mm x 83 mm.

Now we take scotch tape and something else and close that part of the electronic board in which we will not do anything, so as not to damage anything there. we leave only the place where the board is connected to the contact pads on the body of the block itself,

Somewhere in the middle of the contact pads, we will see that the board is connected by two thick wires with the contact pads on the block case. If you take a needle and shake these wires, we will see poor contact from the side of the case.

This is the big drawback of these blocks. Now you need to carefully take some thing with which you can remove the substance from the contact pad, where we will solder. Remove the jelly carefully, the conductors there are very thin, they can be easily damaged. After you remove this jelly, you need to tin this contact pad on the block body. Then we take a wire (copper) 10 centimeters long, 0.3 thick and solder it.

Then we take and service the conductors that go from the ceramic board in the place where they have the maximum distance in height from the board. Carefully push the soldered conductor between the silver conductors and solder everything into one piece, while ensuring heat dissipation of the copper conductor from the contact pad. This is necessary so that the conductor does not get unsoldered from the contact pad. Now take and carefully cut off the remaining wire.

When all this has been done, then for self-satisfaction we check our unit for operability. We take the electronic part and attach it to the valve body. until screwing, we connect both connectors and turn on the ignition. If there is no buzzer and ABS light and (!) In order, then we have completed the work at 5. Now you can collect everything and put it in its place. The lid that was cut off needs to be glued with eboksidkoy or poxipol.

Here, the ABS system has moved from whining to an active counteroffensive. (Passat B3, dv.2E). I drove about a thousand km with a burning ABS light on the torpedo (the ABS turned off in a long road, so it never came back to life. It used to be like this - it suddenly came to life itself).

At the same time, the brakes worked perfectly, as always. The red lamp on the tidy correctly showed the handbrake operation and insufficient pressure in the ABS battery after a long parking (about 30-40 seconds while the ABS pump was pumping the battery).

Vopschem nothing foreshadowed the storm, until on the way to the airport at 6 am the brake pedal became a stake. The RED lamp on the surf SILENT LIKE A FISH, without warning about Achtunga!

Upon returning, I checked the fluid (normal), started and turned off several times - there were no signs of pump operation. The yellow ABS lamp is on, the red one is OFF.

Attempts to interrogate the ABS through a chip and a paper clip did not give any result, just as the ABS does not inform about its problems by blinking a yellow lamp when the ignition is turned on BEFORE turning on the starter. I measured the sensors for resistance - everything seems to be in good order. I never got to the relay - and no one has any pictures WHERE does it hang upside down?

Please advise pls. where else to dig.

Mr. Orlov's ABS website smoked.

😉 When you smoke manuals - inhale! > I never got to the relay - and no one has any pictures WHERE it hangs upside down?

Relays 78 (or 178) and 79 (or 179) can be snapped onto the relay block from above. But more often they are snapped onto a "comb" welded to the wall above the pedals. Fuses are snapped onto the pads of these relays (for the hydraulic pump and the ABS valves, respectively).

Remove the door above the relay box. Remove the panel that contains this cover (4 screws). You can leave the horizontal plate from the panel to the front wall in place, or you can remove it (you just need to pull it out). If relays 78 and 79 are not snapped onto the block, it is more convenient to remove the relay block from the mountings. This is done like this: the block hangs in flat metal brackets on the trunnions. Each bracket has a plastic "clothespin" on the outside. On top of each clothespin there is a "petal", for which the upper edge of the "clothespin" must be pulled to the side (from the relay unit outward). Then a small protrusion-retainer, which is on each "clothespin", will come out of the recess in the bracket. After that, the "clothespin" must be turned down on the trunnion, as on the axle, and pulled it off the trunnion "towards you". It is not at all necessary to take off the "clothespins" simultaneously both at once. After that, the relay unit can be lifted up, the trunnions can be pulled out of the brackets "towards themselves", the unit can be turned with the relays down and left hanging on the wires.
Now look at the metal partition, behind the torpedo, a little to the left of the place of the relay block brackets.

> there are no signs of pump operation, red is OFF

Learn to read wiring diagrams (the manual is available at http: /my.housecope.com/wp-content/uploads/ext/3113) or surrender to a professional auto electrician. Hydraulic pump connection diagram [strong] ELEMENTARY [/ strong]; if you don't understand how it works, then you can only achieve success by chance.
You should definitely check the pressure sensor block and the quality of the ground connection of the brown wire from the 1st contact.

it is strange that the red does not light up, it seems to carry 3 functions on itself - the handbrake, the level of TZ and just the working pressure in the ABS. maybe the pump does not pump, what thinks that the pressure is already there? it seems that there is a check-disassembly of the pressure sensor in the fake.

that's strange to me. > and just the working pressure in the ABS. ... it seems that there is a check-disassembly of the pressure sensor in the fake.

call vw disassembly, phone numbers and addresses, see here

and where did the diagnostics take place?

Initial post from fix
Yes, I’ll tell you for sure tomorrow. H 111

First, you need to cut off the cover that covers the electronic part of the ABC unit.
Sawing is more convenient with a hacksaw blade, just try to prevent the blade from going inside the cut by more than 5-6 mm.

The block is shown with the lid already sawn off. By the way, completely, you can not carry it with you, just unscrew (6 torxes for 20) the electronic part.
Just remember which side the pressure springs are, under the valve coils.
Then you will see this in front of you:

Do not touch the compound with your fingers. And don't look that there are a lot of plastic shavings, this is one of my earliest experiences in repairing :-)
The point of the problem is shown in a blue circle. Everything has already been repaired here.
The mass of the board fell off, from the gilded cotact.
Previously, I tried to just solder the gap in place. (In this case, for example) It is terribly inconvenient, and a couple of times, I damaged the adjacent conductors.
Alternative places for soldering to the minus to the board are marked in red.
The guide on the right is the most convenient point. Build up, guess what?
The main thing for you is to return the mass to the crystal.

my pedal is "soft"

, in connection with which the questions:
1) Do you have a “hard” stop when you press the brake pedal?
2) Does this stop change when the ignition is turned on (read when turning on the ABS and its pump in particular)?

I have already pumped the system twice - it does not help

, pedal somewhere up to 1/3 of the stroke is springy.
Been to Green Triple Crown. Watched. They said that it was necessary to change the entire unit: GTZ + ABC.

I don’t know what to do.

Share your thoughts pliz

Or maybe your rear ones just don't work well. they didn’t work for me and it was the same

In response to:
my pedal is "soft"

with the engine running?
or off?
I have a soft one, too. 🙁 After 5 minutes, release and press again - it sags.

1) Do you have a “hard” stop when you press the brake pedal?

with the engine off - yes.

2) Does this stop change when the ignition is turned on (read when turning on the ABS and its pump in particular)?

check the back ones.
probably poisoning the pump. if it slows down well - forget it IMHO.

after pumping at the station, they asked to accelerate a little and slow down to skid. Result: front - skidding, rear - skidding and does not smell. Floor covering - ceramic tiles (rather slippery).

But the rear adjuster (AKA "sorcerer") said it seemed to work.

And what did you have with the rear? (-)

In general, the answer is yes to both questions!

When I turn on the ignition, a buzz is clearly audible - well, two buttons are lit (brake on the dashboard and an ABS sensor (I don’t remember exactly - there’s an orange light), then how it gets hot (the pressure is pumping up) - everything goes out.

And near our service stations I have depression

try a few if the replacement is affordable - the cost of rechecking is negligible

Well, the bike - somehow my relay burned out - I later found out that the relay was, but the wipers simply refused, the sunroof and this is a vacuum cleaner (or whatever it is, which facilitates the effort on the pedal). so the pedal became oak, with soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon the obolon and then on the Ukrainians (to the nemcharny motors) on the emergency gang he drove. surprisingly repaired there

something doesn't work as it should

Probably I'll try to test somewhere else. And then the ABS unit itself still suffers for the money (40USD), but the replacement is 300 UAH. (on G-T-K) impressive
What else alarmed that the men did not strain their brains, but said that there was a similar case, they replaced the unit - it passed.

And I myself think that maybe it's not a block at all? Maybe the rear cylinders were simply stuck? Usually there are very simple answers to very complex-looking problems.

In general, it turns out to be a sensible master of brakes to find, as it turned out, a difficult question

And about the firm and not very service stations - 100% right. You usually go to them with questions that are dumb to solve in Uncle Vanya's garage, but they don't want to delve into too much, especially if the car is not new